Lance Mungia’s Third Eye Spies is a terrific movie, but what’s really behind this new openness about secret remote viewing programs.

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I have an interview coming up in a minute with Lance Mungia. He’s the creator of the movie, it’s been out for a little while now, it’s called Third Eye Spies. If you like the stuff we talk about here and I guess that’s why you’re here, then this is a really important movie because it talks about the whole history of the secret psychic spying program, Stargate that we all know and love.

So I just wanted to give you a quick heads-up. Lance is fantastic, the movie is fantastic, the  movie is important, but there is this underlying tension in this interview because I don’t exactly see things the same way that Lance does, but hey, who cares? That’s level three, right? We don’t have to agree on everything. Here’s a guy who’s done a terrific movie, here are some clips from the show.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:55] The storyline that the movie follows is that Russell Targ, who is of course one of the original principal investigators in this Stargate remote viewing program and he’s going to reconnect with all of these people that have been a part of this amazing program and then the threat of the story is, “Okay guys, we can now tell the story that we wanted to tell for so long.”

Lance Mungia: [00:01:23] Frankly, he literally showed up at my door with a big box full of documents that were marked  classified, that had been released,  and he starts laying out all of these documents on a table and I started to actually question it, because it was so incredible. I remember going to bed after meeting him the first night and thinking, “Is this guy like for real?” I mean, this is something that is so incredible that I’m only going to really be able to do something like this if I can get everybody, because it was one of those things where, if it’s just one person saying it, it sounds too outlandish.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:57] The conspiratorial guy that I am, one of the first questions I had from the beginning is, why do you think they released all of these documents? I have a hard time believing it’s just for the vanity or the interest of this sweet old man, Professor Russell Targ, who says, “I’d like to do this final tour,” and the CIA says, “Oh great, well, here’s 60 thousand documents that we never released before.”

Lance Mungia: [00:02:27] Oh, I have all kinds of thoughts on that. We think of government as a monolithic thing, the government is coming up with this or the government is hiding this. Government intentionally is very dysfunctional. The presidents and elected officials are always the last to know.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:50] Would you say the CIA director often falls in that category too, because I would?

Lance Mungia: [00:02:55] Yeah, I mean possibly. I would say the CIA director probably knows more than the president does, but Russell and how the two scientists that started this program in the 70s were both already vetted people working within established intelligence circles and they were respected within the intelligence community that had an official oversight.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:03:19] Let me just clarify, you’re saying, as opposed , as we do understand it now, some programs that are just black. 

Lance Mungia: [00:03:26] Yeah, these were not black programs, these were secret programs but they had oversight, and if you think about something like remote viewing, how easy is it to do remote viewing? Basically you close your eyes, you imagine where your target is hiding and then you write down what comes to your mind, the first unexpected images that you get, and that’s it. So it doesn’t take billions of dollars, it doesn’t take fighter jets, but the government is uniquely placed to be able to find out if you’re right or wrong. So you can infiltrate the regular intelligence agencies by giving them information and not telling them where it comes from.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:06] So these guys are playing this disinformation, misinformation and spread of information at a 3D chess level that we don’t totally even get.

Lance Mungia: [00:04:16] Absolutely.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:17] If take what you’re saying and extend it to that, knows what’s going on.

Lance Mungia: [00:04:23] Absolutely.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:24] What do you think those guys are doing with the UFO disclosure thing?

Lance Mungia: [00:04:28] Well, that’s right where I was going to go. My take on both them, with remote viewing, and them with the UFO thing, and I am talking specifically about people that I interviewed that were still sort of involved in these kinds of projects, even by their own admission, is that these are people who are on the inside but they’re not really on the inside.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:51] Let me just throw this out because I’m just dying to get someone’s opinion on this who’s truly thought about it and studied it, as you have. It seems to me that there’s this straight-up political thing that’s going on, that too few people talk about. There’s a left, right, republican, democrat, if you will, kind of flavor to some of this, and the UFO disclosure thing is clearly coming from the left, and I don’t say that to prejudice it in anyway, it just clearly, clearly is. It’s Podesta and Clinton were originally the ones that wanted to bring it out and they weren’t elected, so Tom DeLonge, who was hooked into that, went ahead and brought it out anyway. And Peter Levenda, who was part of that whole thing. I’m just saying, in broad strokes that seems to be one of the overlays on this and I’d love to hear anything you think about that?

Lance Mungia: [00:05:44] Well number one, Trump will be the last person they ever tell, he’ll be the last one on the boat I think.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:05:51] But he has his own people who are telling him. 

Lance Mungia: [00:05:54] Well, he’s starting Space Force and we don’t know why, and all of this kind of stuff, yes. I don’t know that it’s left versus right, as much as it is sort of logic versus superstition.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:53] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris, and at this point we’re all familiar with remote viewing and the history of psychic spying that began in the 1970s with the Stargate program at Stanford Research Institute, but today’s guest, award-winning filmmaker Lance Mungia has a film out, Third Eye Spies, that is really a deeper look into this history and its implications, not just for proving that we’re more than biological robots in a meaningless universe, but  also a deep dive into the politics of secrecy, the ongoing tension between liberty and security and ultimately about our place within this thing we call consciousness.

 

Lance, this is going to be a super exciting interview for me. Thank you so much for joining me on Skeptiko.

Lance Mungia: [00:21:00] Oh, hey, thank you so much for having me. This is like a lot of fun and I really appreciate you’re having me on.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:07] Well great. You know we were just chatting a minute ago, the more I get to know your project, Third Eye Spies, which is a great movie and we should mention by the way, you know, if people haven’t seen the movie, it’s now even available on Amazon Prime were you can just go and watch it for free. Which is, wow, that’s a great deal. Why did you decide to put it out on Amazon Prime, just to kind of spread it out so more people could get to it?

Lance Mungia: [00:21:33] Well, yes. Amazon Prime, you know, if you have an Amazon Prime membership, the film is free there. It’s also available on iTunes, it’s available on Vimeo, pretty much anywhere that you can get digital downloads. But we really wanted to make the film available for free if possible, you know, through something like Amazon Prime or Netflix, and we ultimately decided on Amazon Prime because it just seems like that really was where the audience was at, and actually we’ve been doing well there.

It seems like a lot of people are finding the film there and are able to see it, and for me that was the most important thing more than anything else, was just simply being able to have the film out there and have it be seen by people, because it’s a subject that a lot of people don’t know about. It represents Russell Targ’s life work, so it was very important for me just that it be out there in such a way that it’s easily findable and Amazon Prime really gave us that opportunity and we’re really grateful for that.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:39] For anyone who isn’t familiar with the movie, Third Eye Spies, let me go ahead and play a trailer from the movie.

[Trailer]

Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:12] Well, a great trailer.

Lance Mungia: [00:24:14] Yeah. It’s actually, really a very cool trailer.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:18] It is a cool trailer, it’s a cool movie. People who haven’t seen the movie, this is cinematography, this is theater quality documentary, and I think a lot of people have praised you for it and you deserve that praise.

So anything else you want to tell us about the movie making process or Third Eye Spies that isn’t covered there in the trailer?

Lance Mungia: [00:24:42] Well, the movie itself took quite a long time to make, mainly because I was doing it, you know, as a labor of love. I was working on this, kind of sporadically as I was also trying to do other things. It really represents the first time that a lot of the people that are in the film have actually been on camera. One of the reasons that the film took so long was because I had to personally reach out to a lot of people, who were very kind of skittish to be on camera and that process actually took a number of months for me to reach out to people like Kit Green, like Ken Kress who was the CIA program manager for the remote viewing program, the first one.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:25:28] Let me jump in there because we’re going to throw around a lot of names that some people will not be familiar with or will be vaguely familiar with. But the storyline that the movie follows is that Russell Targ, who is of course one of the original principal investigators in this Stargate remote viewing program, along with Hal Puthoff, is kind of on this final mission, you know, he’s an older guy, and he’s going to reconnect through you, you’re with them every step of the way, with all of these people that have been a part of this amazing program. And he gets these documents released and then the threat of the story is, “Okay guys, we can now tell the story that we wanted to tell for so long, and let’s go and do it.” And you go and sit down with these people all over the world and they fill in the blanks of this story, that we kind of have known about. the story of psychic spying, but it just gets a lot deeper than that.

Lance Mungia: [00:26:31] Yeah, I actually knew something about this whole program, even since I was a child. I remember before this was even declassified, reading an episode of my grandmother’s Reader’s Digest, and it was talking about this top-secret army remote viewing program. There had been leaks about it. I think this was in the 80s. And I kept this like dog-eared copy of Reader’s Digest for decades, like into college I had this, because I always thought this would make a really interesting film someday, but I didn’t know a whole lot about it. I’d also researched some of Hal Puthoff’s work and some of Russell’s daughter’s work sort of through healing, you know, sort of the way consciousness kind of works. So I was familiar with them.

When I got a call from a mutual friend of Russell Targ, to say that Russell Targ was interested in speaking with me because he had seen another film that I had done. He saw a film called Six String Samurai, which you can find also on Amazon Prime and on the internet. He just thought it was a really visually interesting film and he had a script that he wanted to turn into a movie which was a narrative film, which had nothing to do with remote viewing, it was about ESP, but it was done in, kind of a narrative way.

I read his script and then we spoke on the phone about it, and I said, “Look, the real story here I think is this remote viewing stuff that you did for the government. This is a fantastic story can we even talk about it?” And he said, “You know, my friend Ingo died last year, he was one of my subjects and I’m afraid that all of these people are going to pass away and we’re not going to ever get their stories on camera. So yeah, I would love to do that.”

So, he literally flew out to LA and we spent a long weekend together, just talking about the possibilities and frankly, he literally showed up at my door with a big box full of documents that were marked classified that had been and and he starts laying out all of these documents on a table and I literally, even though I knew something about, this I did not, at all, know the extent to what had happened with this program that had gone back over 20 years, and what they had done and I started the actually question it, because it was so incredible. I remember going to bed after meeting him the first night and thinking, “Is this guy like for real?” I mean, this is something that is so incredible that I’m only going to really be able to do something like this if I can get everybody that is still alive that I can find enough credit witnesses to really discuss this, because it was one of those things where if it’s just one person saying it, it sounds too outlandish. You need to hear it from a bunch of different people.

So, that was really my condition going into the film and we actually talked also at the beginning, and this is something I don’t think I’ve talked about before, about the possibility that we may be still stumbling into ongoing classified work and we didn’t know what CIA and what some of these other agencies were still doing or what they might not want us to talk about. So there was actually like a real conversation about, “Do we really want to do this?” And ultimately we decided that enough of the work had been already declassified and that we were going to be talking about the history and we wouldn’t be going into any kind of speculation. Because I think where this sort of falls apart is when you go into speculation and you start talking about what I know but I can’t tell you what my sources are, or whatever, and then it becomes sort of second-hand and we wanted this to actually be a historical document, not a speculative document, because everything in it is is very well documented.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:30:21] You know, there are so many story threads in the movie and in turn there are so many story threads in the part that you just lay it on us right there. One little bit that you mentioned about your tattered copy of Reader’s Digest, one of the things your movie reminded me is that this was outed, like 20 years ago. So you have film clips of Ted Koppel, who for folks who are a little bit younger and don’t remember, but he was it, you know, in terms of serious night-time news, he was the guy, and he’s out saying, “Hey, there’s this psychic spying thing going on. We’re in a race with the Russians, they’re doing it, we’re doing it,” basically lays the whole thing out. But part of the storyline is that that changes and then we move away from that and we move into this kind of skeptical denying, did it really happen, kind of thing. We don’t really ever get to understanding what the purpose of that was, why the narrative changed from kind of this openness, which there was about it, to this denial of it.

So we can kind of go down that, and then at the same time I want to throw this on the table too, because you touched on the ongoing nature of these programs and you have just a little bit of a tease at the very end with, I think it was Kit Green, but it might have been one of the other super-duper insiders in an elevator saying, “Oh, yeah, these programs are still ongoing. I know it from my most trusted reliable source,” which of course, all of us who’ve really studied this have said, “Duh, of course.” If you can gather any information you want, the most secretive information in the world from your enemies, of course you’re going to continue to do it. You’re not going to stop doing it just because some Senator has some religious objections or something like that.

Lance Mungia: [00:32:22] When I first started this, looking at this from, sort of a filmmaker’s perspective, from a storytelling perspective, I would ask people and especially Russell being a producer on the project, Russell Targ, he was the co-founding scientist who started all of this, “Who’s the villain? “Who’s the bad guy in this?” And he didn’t even think about it, he just said, “It’s the the religious dogma, the scientific dogma to a certain extent, but mainly religious dogma.” And and I didn’t believe him frankly. I thought that’s this way too outlandish. If you have a useful tool, you’re not going to tell me that some guy that thinks it’s the devil’s work or something is going to keep you from doing it.

And what I learned, through years of going out and interviewing these people that did this was yeah. That pretty much was one of the biggest obstacles that they had, was not only a scientific skepticism, but a completely illogical skepticism that wouldn’t even look at the data, that wouldn’t even entertain the idea that this could even be, because this was something that was supernatural and spooky and scary to them.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:33:46] Exactly what you said. It’s not just spooky and scary, it is the devil’s work. And you have a clip in the film with  Joe McMoneagle, he has been on the show and I think he’s terrific in a number of ways, although I also had an interview with Ed May who ran the program after Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff left, and he’s an interesting character because he kind of says his friends with Joe, but then on the other hand contradicts what Joe’s saying, because Joe sees these deeper spiritual connections with near-death experience and consciousness in general.

But I digress because one of the points that again stuck out to me in Third Eye Spies is this point where Joe really becomes kind of passionate talking to Russell, he goes, “Russell, we survived five presidential administrations,” and you get the sense of we had to put up with all this craziness, political craziness, that was sometimes driven by purely this Christian kind of craziness about, how we should understand this stuff from this very narrow religious perspective that I think you’re talking about right here, and there’s just no way to soften that or to make that go away. It is and it really struck me that this was a reality in these guys’ lives, it wasn’t just kind of a conceptual kind of thing to toss around.

Lance Mungia: Yeah, you know, it’s the old adage, the more things change the more they stay the same. I believe that they have the same issues with the AATIP program, you know, studying UFOs. From accounts that have come out from that it sounds exactly like what they went through with the remote viewing program, in that when you’re dealing with something that does not fall within the normal scientific and sort of religious paradigm, that a lot of people just cannot get their head wrapped around it. They don’t want to rock their world view as you know, as Jessica Utts in our film says. So they will do anything they can to stay inside this box that they have created for themselves.

And and if you think about it, you can go all the way back to Galileo and Galileo creating a telescope and going out in the streets and playing this thing up at the sky and trying to get somebody to look through it and by his account no one would look through it.  Remote viewing and psychic ability in general, is that you can overlay pretty much whatever belief system you want on top of it and no one can prove you wrong.

I interviewed Ed May for the film and unfortunately he didn’t make it into the film but he said, we can study this for another 50 years and never know how this actually works, they just know that it works.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:46] Well, Ed May says that because then that’s how it’s going to come out. I wasn’t impressed at all with Ed May. Talk about a dogmatic materialist, he’s there in my interview, he’s slamming parapsychology, he’s slamming Dean Radin, he’s slamming Joe McMoneagle. It’s just the same old kind of turf war kind of bullshit that has all of these limitations that we’ve come to expect with science.

So those are the two storylines that emerge from the movie, one is kind of this crazy religious dogma that creates this crazy political process, where things have to be compartmentalized and couched in a certain way in order to get this miniscule amount of funding. But then on the other hand, there’s this other force out there that is this skeptical scientific Ray Hyman who shows up in the film, because later on in the game he looks at the whole program and says, “Yeah none of this shows any scientific value or any operational value for the CIA, and that’s why the program was killed.”

So you have to contrast that with the crazy Christians on one end and then you have the crazy atheists on the other and who’s plugging them, what’s their political agenda?

Lance Mungia: [00:38:04] That’s right, and it’s both, it’s dogma on either side, because it’s about someone who thinks they have it all figured out and unfortunately or fortunately science should be about what you don’t understand and every advance in science throughout history has always been in the cracks that we have missed.

But I want to mention about Ray Hyman, even Ray Hyman, who is the noted skeptic, actually said there was something to the statistical data of remote viewing. He just didn’t say that it was useful to intelligence gathering. That really gets back to the question that you were asking earlier, which is what has happened since the 80s when this was on Ted Koppel and the 70s when this was really pursued to now? And I do think that a certain amount of that is guided. I do think that this is a useful tool and I think that if I was someone using this in a large way, I certainly wouldn’t want it to be known widely how useful and how good it is, because that would mean that just about anybody can use it, and maybe as an intelligence tool I might think that’s dangerous, I don’t know.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:23] Wow, I mean, you just touched on a bunch of topics that could become entire interviews in and of themselves. One of the things I thought was interesting about the movie on this level that I hope people will appreciate once they get into it, is that this is a really unique look at secret programs and how they’re run because one of the questions I had for you Lance is the conspiratorial guy that I am, one of the first questions I had from the beginning is, why do you think they released all of these documents? I have a hard time believing it’s just for the vanity or the interest of this sweet old man, Professor Russell Targ, who says, “I’d like to do this final tour,” and the CIA says, “Oh great, well, here’s 60 thousand documents that we never released before, let’s let the public know what really happened during the Stargate program.” What are your thoughts?

Lance Mungia: [00:40:28] I Oh, I have all kinds of thoughts on that. We think of government as a monolithic thing, the government is coming up with this or the government is hiding this. Government intentionally is very dysfunctional, and intentionally is very compartmentalized, especially in the intelligence community. If you don’t want somebody to know about something, you just kind of sprinkle it around in different ways and you do what’s called stovepiping, where there’s a very vertical amount of people that know about this and they don’t talk to other groups of other people in the intelligence community. It’s not like the Department of Homeland Security where they’re trying to track everything that’s going on, it’s exactly the opposite.

So, even within the Pentagon or even within CIA or NSA or anything else, they’re not talking to each other and they’re not filing something in some centralized database where everybody can look at. And in fact, over time, a lot of things are probably really lost because the people that know the information get old, you lose stuff.

I really went into this thinking that there was this kind of monolithic force that has sort of protected this and worked on this and by the end I realized, no, the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. In fact when we interviewed Ken Kress who was the program manager that ran the remote viewing program for the CIA for the first few years,  he had never done an interview before, he didn’t know what he could talk about and what he couldn’t, and every question that we asked him and everything that he wanted to talk about, he had to send off to the CIA to get approved. And when he told me that, after months of back and forth with him and getting him to do the interview, my heart sank because I went, “Oh now. They’re going to mix everything. I’m not going to be able to talk about anything. This is going to be the end of it.” He got back this response from them and he sent me all of the questions and the answers before the interview and I’m looking at this and I’m going, “Oh my God, this is incredible.” I mean he’s talking about, like the CIA running remote viewers internally against Libya and other countries and stuff that I didn’t even know, stuff that Russell didn’t even know, and they released all of this data. So you’ve got to ask why, is this a plot, are they trying…?

Alex Tsakiris: [00:43:05] Well, is it, what is your answer?

Lance Mungia: [00:43:07] No, it’s not a plot. It’s because the guy at the desk at CIA knows nothing about this and thinks this is like a joke. I mean, he’s looking at this and going, “Well, I don’t know anything about this. Sure, you want to talk about it, go ahead like” you know, like all of that stuff is old news.

To a certain extent there’s a loss of continuity of how the information comes out. Now that’s on the one hand, now on the other hand, all of Russell’s work originally was marked, “Automatic, do not downgrade,” like classified. Normally when things are declassified they automatically become public after 25 years, you can request them if you know about them. But in this case Russell said when he tried to get some of his work declassified, he got back a stamp, “Automatic, do not downgrade,” you know, you cannot declassify this.

So the only way to get it declassified was, he had to go to politicians, he had to go to people within the defense department and basically start this legal battle with his son where it went back and forth, just to get basically the Pat Price stuff and the Ingo Swann early stuff declassified, you know, looking at Soviet weapons sites and stuff that was 20, 30 years old by that time.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:44:25] But here’s the part that kind of contradicts that and it’s right out of your movie and it’s the the UFO link. So, fast forward now to where we’re at now. And lo and behold who’s up on stage Tom DeLonge who’s right behind him how there’s hell lifetime player. Another thing your movie reveals is how was Naval intelligence agency from the beginning and when how put off in Russell Targ have a little bit of a split?

I don’t want to exaggerate that. It does seem like they’re these two different guys. There’s the researcher Russell Targ who’s the mad scientist and there’s this other guy who’s also a researcher, but at the end of the day is a lifetime player in the intelligence agency and those how to work inside those circles.

So if this was part of the agenda that is to roll out the. The UFO fake SIOP disclosure that became in 2017. Not that it wasn’t fake. Not that those things really didn’t happen. But it seemed to be it seems to me to a lot of people to be a very controlled kind of disclosure of an event that happened 10 years ago and they’ve been sitting on for all this time and yet they rolled it out like hey, this is happening now.

Are you sure that may be what they released you guys wasn’t part of a larger project of let’s kind of push this stuff out there see where it goes. I love your comment earlier that you just sprinkle it around a little bit and kind of see where it goes. And then you deal with the pieces after after it’s out there.

Lance Mungia: [00:46:18] Well number one any time you deal with the intelligence Community or people who are lifelong, people with security clearances. It’s always peeling away the layers of an onion. You never are going to know what they know because they’re not going to tell you, you know, like the even even when Chris got all those questions release.

He said there was a ton of other stuff that he wanted to talk about. He wasn’t allowed to talk about and I’ve called him since and said hey, can we talk about that and he hasn’t, you know, ever received a final response back on it. So it’s it’s not that I want to clarify my earlier statement because it’s not that it’s all just in disarray and nobody knows there’s people that know.

There’s just you know, it depends on what you’re really talking about because there’s there’s other even more classified things that we still don’t know. I mean how at the time I interviewed him said that probably 70% of what they had done in remote viewing program is still to this day classified and you couldn’t talk about it.

So there’s there’s definitely a lot of that and now I’m getting the question of is this some sort of intentional. Disclosure in terms of remote viewing program it was the opposite because what happened was that that Russell basically got specific things that he had done officially Declassified the army guys that had been getting out of the army and going and talking about this stuff were reviled by the CIA, you know is what I like what I later learned the CIA hated the fact.

That the Army had a remote viewing program. Now while they were saying that they hated it. They were still using it. I mean they were the biggest customer of the army guys. But but the head of the CIA would publicly go before Committees of Congress and and berate the fact that they even had a remote viewing program.

They wanted it gone and and now in my own opinion and it’s just an opinion as a lay person. I believe the reason they wanted it gone was probably because. The Army is to Vici, you know, like the guys getting out of the army are not career like lifelong intelligence agents, you know, like Rock Solid will always be there.

They’ll get out of the army and retire and they want to make movies. They want to you know, go write a book, you know, they want to teach remote viewing, you know, there’s a whole other sort of mode of somebody who’s an army grunt who just learned how to do remote viewing versus a lifelong.

Intelligence agent for CIA and that’s one

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:42] possible explanation. But let me throw out another explanation. And again, this is something you touched on earlier is one of the things that your movie reveals is again, the longtime problems and challenges that a secret program like this faces and we’re talking about Joe mechanical standing up and saying we survived five.

Administration’s and that gets to this continuity of government kind of thing right is necessary, right? You can’t have a country’s intelligence agencies spinning on a dime just because a new president is elected that would be disastrous to so these Old-Timers have been around for a long time.

They see the value in. Kind of keeping it close to the vest and not maybe sharing both stuff with people the way the Constitution says it should so your film kind of shows how that plays out how these CIA even the CIA directors are saying rather kind of. Absurd things in light of what’s really going on in terms of the larger picture that you’re telling so is it isn’t that just another point of confusion?

Lance Mungia: [00:49:59] well, Number one, you know the president’s and elected officials are always the last to know and and in Russell Targ and help put off you had

Alex Tsakiris: [00:50:10] say the CIA director often Falls in that category too because I would

Lance Mungia: [00:50:15] yeah.

Yeah, I mean possibly, you know, I would say the CIA director probably knows more than the president does but but Russell and how The two scientists that started this program in the 70s. We’re both already vetted people working within established intelligence circles. They were both the pioneers of lasers and things like that.

So they were they were both really very respected people within the intelligence Community already and and they were respected within the intelligence community that had an official. Oversight you know, like they were reporting to you know, Congress committees and you know people high up in government.

So there was an official Channel already to work through that was overseen by elected officials. So when they took their remote viewing experiments to people in government, there was an official Channel, you know to go through and.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:09] Let me just clarify you’re saying as opposed to as we do understand it.

Now some programs that are just Black is

Lance Mungia: [00:51:16] Black from we’re not hitting these were not black programs. These were these were secret programs, but they had oversight and and if you think about something like remote viewing how easy is it to do remote viewing. Basically you close your eyes you imagine where your target is is hiding and then you write down what comes to your mind the first unexpected images that you get and that’s it.

You know, so so it doesn’t take billions of dollars. It doesn’t take fighter jets but the government is uniquely placed to be able to find out if you’re right or wrong, you know, like I can talk about what’s going on in Russia, but I have no idea if I’m right or wrong they do you know, so so you can.

Infiltrate the regular intelligence agencies by giving them information and not telling them where it comes from,

Alex Tsakiris: [00:52:05] say that again, let’s talk about that.

Lance Mungia: [00:52:06] Well, okay, so. So let’s say me right now in this room.

I have a team of five remote viewers and there’s one contact from government that has reached out to us and I am I look at a bunch of locations. He wants me to look at I sent him that data no idea if it’s right or wrong. I may never know if it’s right or wrong, but he knows and he may be the only one that knows where that information.

He where he’s getting it, but then he’s feeding it into the mainstream apparatus of intelligence. And and so even the intelligence agencies themselves may not know who this guy’s contact is, but they’re going to still use the information if it turns out to be useful and if it turns out to be useful once then the chances are it’s going to be useful again and again and again and nobody has to know how that information is being gathered.

You know, it’s not there’s no oversight. There doesn’t have to be.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:01] It moreover. If I’m into the game of misinformation disinformation even within my agency, which is often the case, you know, and we’ll talk a little story about get green . Where he admits that that you know, there were constantly tests done against him to see where his information would go.

So these guys are playing this disinformation, misinformation and spread of information at a 3D chess level that we don’t totally even get absolutely take what you’re saying an extended to that who knows, you know, what’s going on.

Lance Mungia: [00:53:38] Absolutely and I am constantly confused by people like, you know kit and people who are lifelong intelligence agencies and you have to always look at it through the prism that they’re not telling you everything.

And there may be an agenda, you know, and and you just you have to but you can still extrapolate out from that because there’s enough public information out there and enough people that aren’t directly in the intelligence community so that you can kind of get at like what’s real and what’s not.

Boom.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:54:06] Oh, can you that’s really the question because it can’t green is a classic example of that lifetime player. Your movie is fantastic in the way that it captures kit green. Not just the information that he gives in the film. Which is terrific but as you were alluding to you get a sense for this kind of wily Fox who kind of knows so much more than ever reveal and in a way is kind of playing with you.

Like if you poke at just the right questions, I might tell you more but if you can’t bring the level of discourse up to that level then I’m going to divert you over this way. Do you want to talk about. That any further

Lance Mungia: [00:54:56] there’s there’s a distinct difference between somebody like Russell Targ and somebody like how put off work it green or some of these other people in that in that Russell always was first and foremost a researcher who was looking to.

The publish, you know, he wanted to publish papers. He wanted to get the word out about like what he was Finding because what he was Finding was world-changing, you know, the fact that that there is no proof of something like ESP, you know, like there is something that exists that we don’t understand that allows a person to see outside of space and time.

And and gather information they otherwise shouldn’t have and so he became a lot more frustrated over the years because as this got better and better use the amount of information going out got less and less and less. Right and now how and and kit both were much more company men, you know, like like like you said how had a background with NSA and with and with intelligence kitten claims that he’s still consults with CIA and other intelligence agencies.

So they’re having an agenda that is not necessarily the best agenda. To get good science out because it may not be their objective to get best science. I don’t know I’m not in there there click.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:19] it really isn’t even a matter of science at the end of the day and that’s where I think you are the I want to explore that with you personally in terms of spirituality and your understanding of spirituality because.

Ultimately, that’s what we’re talking about here when we talk about Russell Targ, and we understand that he wants to make the world a better world in some way that. We’re supposed to connect with Consciousness and being psychic which is okay. I can go there but there is this natural tension with this other group that says yeah, but you really don’t want the Chinese sending an Emi weapon like they did off the coast of San Diego and wiping out your  entire.

Grid either and that’s a reality in the Hans marching Over The Hills Have Always Been a reality and at the end of the day. This is this is kit green. This is. He’ll put off if you will saying you care about your security more than you care about anything else. If you care about your security more than you think you care about this idea of spirituality and Consciousness and loving everybody.

So let me tell you right now. I’m going to go ahead and protect you because at the end of the day, that’s what you want. So. Let’s continue to explore that because there is a reality to that does transcend quote-unquote science if you will.

Lance Mungia: [00:57:52] Yeah, I mean, I want to start by saying that although

I believe that that these guys who are lifelong intelligence agents are not able to say everything and may have an agenda.

I’ve come to the conclusion that. They all that that they do care about the science and they do care about this not being a dying mode of study, you know, meaning that this work continues on that they have done and I’m talking specifically about Kitt I’m talking specifically about how put off, you know people who may or may not still be doing intelligence work.

They still care about the work that has been done my take on kit grain for instance is yeah, he cares about the science he cares about what has been done. He wants it to be talked about it. He doesn’t want it to be talked about in a big way. You know, he you know, he doesn’t mind if the research continues but let’s not make it so big that all of the sudden this becomes mainstream.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:58:50] so then what do you think those guys are doing with the UFO disclosure thing?

Lance Mungia: [00:58:55] Well, that’s that’s that’s right where I was going to go, you know, the the my take on both them with remote viewing and them with the UFO thing and I am talking specifically about people that I interviewed that were still sort of involved in these kinds of projects even by their own admission is that these are people who are in the in on the inside.

But they’re not really on the inside.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:18] Let me just throw this out because I’ll rice diet to get some of this opinion on this who’s truly the thought about it and studied it as you are. It seems to me that there’s this straight up political thing that’s going on that too few people talk about there’s a left-right republican Democrat if you will.

Kind of flavor to some of this and that, you know, so this the UFO disclosure thing is clearly coming from the left and I don’t say that to Prejudice it in. Anyway, it just clearly clearly is its Podesta and Clinton were originally the ones to prove that wanted to bring it out and. They weren’t elected.

So Tom DeLonge who was hooked into that went ahead and brought it out. Anyway, and Peter Levin de who was part of that whole thing, which is Lifetime spook. I don’t know why anyone sees him other than just a lightweight. Who’s this who Peter Levin de?

Lance Mungia: [01:00:09] Okay,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:00:09] you know along with Tom belonging. You know, his story is I called up Tom DeLonge.

It’s like Tom, is it really you? Oh my gosh. Well, we have to figure this out. The only place we can go is the CIA. You know, it’s great. It’s just a kind of a manufactured story, but it seems to be coming from one side of the political Spectrum again, not to Prejudice it and it’s interesting kind of the crypto speak that the other side brings out through Trump who’s the current mouthpiece like him or not for that side?

Who sang? Yeah, I’m very skeptical of that whole thing. So they’re kind of taking that angle and there’s this we’ve all known for a long time. And as your movie kind of again points out is there is this kind of straight up political way to understand intelligence organizations particularly the CIA.

In terms of this right left and the agenda would seem to be for the UFO thing this kind of one world thing. We need to you know, it’s global warming. It’s UFOs. It’s one world give up your rights. Don’t think about you being this individual kind of country and person and then we have the other side saying no, you should only think about.

America First America’s the greatest can think again, I’m not trying to flavor that in any way. I’m just saying in Broad Strokes that seems to be one of the overlays on this and I’d love to hear anything you think about that?

Lance Mungia: [01:01:34] Well number one. Trump will be the last person they ever tell he’ll be the last one on the boat.

I think but

Alex Tsakiris: [01:01:43] oh but he has his own he has his own people who are telling him. I mean,

Lance Mungia: [01:01:46] well there there he starting space force and we don’t know why and all this kind of stuff. Yes, but you’ve got to look at I think I don’t know that it’s left versus right as much as it is sort of logic versus Superstition and again, you’re talking about a sort of very mainstream level of oversight which probably doesn’t exist because most or all of this work at this. Is no longer being done within the government, you know, like, you know, this Clinton tried very hard in the 90s with laurance Rockefeller, you know, this is a topic that is covered in another documentary that I’m producing and editing right now called the Phenomenon with James Boggs, you know, we talked all about how in the 90s they tried to get access to, you know, UFO records from the US government and you know, they were told that nothing was there in fact in a very.

Kind of haphazard cover up kind of a way. So it’s it’s not that they’re being told something and it is being ignored. It’s that they’re not being told anything which then brings me back to like people like TTS a now. I’ve thought a lot about like what is their agenda? Like, what is there? What are they trying to get at with this this whole disclosure thing?

And you know at first I thought well, maybe there’s some you know, like working disclosure going on or this is something from the top and now I actually do think like getting back to what I was just saying earlier. This is more about people who know something who want to know more who are trying to push the subject.

That’s what I think, you know in terms of what they’re doing now because. They’ve been in the know but there’s probably other people somewhere that either were associated with government or are that know a lot more, you know and most likely they’re in working in the private sector, you know, and they have some classified contacts, but primarily they’re working outside of government because that’s the only way that you can prevent this kind of stuff from leaking out because eventually elected officials are probably going to leak it out.

Like there’s going to be loose lips like something’s going to happen. So they keep this is so secretive that they keep all of this off the books completely. I think that’s probably what happened with the remote viewing program. You know, you you haven’t just off the books doesn’t even exist anymore within government, you know,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:05] there’s just so many layers to this but it does get interesting the thing about the UFO thing that I want to explore a little bit further with you is UFO was a placeholder.

It’s a placeholder in the public psyche that people can kind of wrap their arms around at this point. The real question is non-human intelligence. That’s what we really care about. And that’s ET or whatever kind of spirit communication is connected with that and what that. Non-human intelligence might be doing with our government or might be doing with the population in general.

That’s where the stuff really gets interesting. I think and it even gets interesting from an intelligence standpoint, you know, one of the things that really kind of turn my head around this is a UFO researcher named crank Cameron is probably done more, you know, Grant.

Lance Mungia: [01:05:00] Yeah, I love Grant Cameron.

Yeah,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:02] probably done more work than anyone. I’m revealing the presidential understanding of UFOs throughout all these administration’s going way back to Nixon, you know, and what he uncovered was the Wilbert Smith document Wilbert Smith memo, which was released under the Freedom of Information Act in Canada because he was the highest ranking official in Canada who was basically responsible for everything.

Radio and outer space related. So all the UFO stuff wound up on his desk and eventually he went to his bosses and said hey, I need to go down there and see what the Yanks down there in the United States know so he goes down and comes back and he writes this memo that is later truly released under Freedom of Information as the which is like a rarity, you know, that isn’t just leaked out.

He says UFOs. Are the most secret most important

thing in the United States government? I met with vannevar bush who we now know is like super connected right guy and he mentions all these other guys who are the guys that you’d want to know? He says it’s hot more secret than the hydrogen bomb and then he reveals a tiny little tidbit that ties into your story.

Of Third Eye Spies and remote viewing and also ties into this larger story of non-human intelligence. He says that there is a mental phenomenon. Associated with this contact experience. And from there. We have a greater understanding for MKUltra, which maybe we’ll have a chance to talk about sure which is all about mind control all about Consciousness and what that could be including the the weaponization of.

But I have to wonder that if this wasn’t always one of the primary objectives of all this mental Consciousness work is to try and understand. What’s going on with ET because contact with ET was made by the government a long time ago as revealed in the Wilbert Smith Memo from the 50s and is now kind of being forced out in the latest.

You know to the Stars Academy release in December 2017. I know I’ve thrown a lot on the table there, but

Lance Mungia: [01:07:34] no no, it’s good. And I think that that’s actually something I love to talk about is the is the psychic connection between ufology and and everything else that I’ve just been studying and and I have a lifelong interest in ufology to I love studying that stuff.

But but what was so interesting to me through making Third Eye Spies. Is that the sort of the weirdness the strangeness that happens whether you’re dealing with something like remote viewing or whether you’re even dealing with you know ufology and seeing UFOs and it’s something that actually really gets missed very often which is that the phenomenon.

Is not just seeing a craft. It’s not just seeing a being it’s not just whatever. It’s there’s a general strangeness and sort of uptick in psychic ability. Uptick in just bizarre occurrences PK, like all of this like very strange phenomenon that comes along with that territory and that gets overlooked a lot by researchers because it’s too weird, you know, like there’s a in the movie that I’m doing with Jane’s box.

You know, we have a photo of a guy. From Australia that has its the first it’s a perfect image of a UFO that he shot with a Polaroid camera, you know 50 years ago, you know, and it’s part of the case in the film and what’s not in that film is that this guy says I don’t want anything to do with this phenomenon and it’s not because of the Prejudice or because people came after me or anything like that.

It’s because after I took this photo all I did was take a photo all of this weird stuff started happening, you know, there was all of this PK stuff flying across the room. There was he said that he said that in the middle of the night. He got a bang on his door and he opens the door and there’s a little person like a like a dwarf.

Dressed in Edwardian outfit and he’s and he’s berating them in in berating the guy in some weird accent and he turns around and takes a few steps and then disappears right in front of his eyes, you know, it’s like completely non-scientific weird crazy stuff, you know, and and you hear this kind of stuff a lot from people who experience these kinds of things and it’s never talked about because it’s so weird and so crazy that it’s just not dealt with but what it suggests is that.

In general we’re dealing with almost like cracks in the fabric of reality, you know, and and if we’re going to accept that. Then we have to accept our own role in reality, you know, and the fact that that we’re probably a lot more than what we give ourselves credit for

Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:15] or a lot less in this physical manifestation and a lot more in our entire spiritual being which may be partially here and maybe partially residing in some other realm that we don’t understand.

Lance Mungia: [01:10:29] Well, that’s that’s almost a given that’s almost a given because it’s the only way that you can. Um, see what’s happening on, you know, the rings of Jupiter, you know, like what like Ingo Swann did he predicted there was going to be ice rings around Jupiter when everybody thought he was crazy and talking about Saturn.

It was a few months before Pioneer the you know, the first probe got there. The only way you could know something like that that no other human being on the planet actually knows is if somehow that information is already in your head or you have access to all information, you know, this is like, what up?

What Edgar Cayce would call the akashic record, right, you know, so the. The thing about that is that it suggests that our Consciousness is non-local. It doesn’t just exist within our brains, you know, and this isn’t a woo concept. It’s not a you know, a religious concept or spiritual. It’s just what’s being born out in you know, experiments that have been done, you know is that there’s no way that this could have been known unless it was non-local information that we are picking up from some other part of ourselves.

It’s not existing in here.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:35] You know, I had a chance to interview Kevin Day who was the Top Gun operator of the

Lance Mungia: [01:11:42] naval fleet. Oh right

Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:44] to cry sightings actually happened and he tells. An exact account of what you’re talking about in terms of these ballet Davis effects from shock delay and David wrote a paper on it.

You know, when you say the Edwardian little person that shows up at the door, that’s Kevin story is not that but it’s he’s tracking these. UFOs. And he’s tracking him for days, which is kind of an interesting part of the story because why would you be tracking these things for four or five days that are following you flying at 28,000 feet  and you wouldn’t report this to your superiors again.

There’s some level of Mind Control going on here that we don’t totally understand but put that side of the story away from it. He’s tracking them. They finally send up. Faber and these other fighter pilots to go check out the UFOs at the same time. Kevin says he walks up on the deck and takes the glasses out and looks at the UFOs and exactly to your point at that moment something shifts in him.

And he comes home. He gets off the boat in San Diego and he does his stuff but he winds up retiring from the Navy after 20 years and going through just all these strange synchronicities. Extended Consciousness kind of things and he’s really struggling to in the same way that if you study near-death experiencers, they come back and it’s not just all love and light.

It’s a lot of depression struggling reintegration in with this what are these powers and abilities I now have so it’s it’s interesting that that happened to Kevin day as part of the Tic Tac sighting. But it’s also interesting that the guys were talking about who are the operational guys the guys who are rolling out this information and who are spinning it as Department of Defense has to protect us because these UFOs could be dangerous and that’s clearly The Narrative that’s come out from that round of disclosure.

They know Kevin story they know about this tear in the extended reality that you’re talking about and they also know as your film points out in concludes with Edgar Mitchell. Who says Hey doesn’t this really transcend these little warring factions that we have on this planet and doesn’t it suggest that we’re all much more deeply connected and have a much deeper purpose.

So. There is that tension that is unresolved and is left unresolved at the end of Third Eye Spies in terms of these guys  they understand that there is more.

Lance Mungia: [01:14:39] Yes. Yeah they do and and and I mean, I think that anybody that studies this stuff there’s there’s basically two types of people there’s there’s people who have looked at the data and then there’s people who have not looked at the data, you know, because if you’ve actually looked at the hundred years or more of data in certain terms of psychic functioning, you’re not going to question whether or not it’s real or not.

You know, you’re going to question what the mechanism is you’re going to question. You know how it works, but you can’t question whether or not it’s real, you know, once you’ve been exposed to it, especially firsthand, you know, there is a there there and it’s up to science to figure out what that there is, you know, and how it works and and and and move into that and I think that when you’re exposed to something that is outside of your paradigm.

It’s like it creates a crack in your own Consciousness that allows more in and that can be very crazy making you know, it’s like I don’t recommend somebody take up remote viewing without some sort of a discipline and and you know oversight and you know, you don’t just want to do something haphazardly because it you can’t take away somebody’s worldview without giving them another one.

You know, that’s that’s in one of German monocles books actually, which I really love that statement because you know, you’re because you’re going to fill those gaps with a bunch of misinformation and wrong stops that that’s just crazy making, you know, and in reality. It’s just part of who we are as human beings, but you know, you said something really interesting which is that Kevin Day.

For three days did not even report the the radar site. I knew he had seen it for 4 days. I didn’t know he didn’t report it for for three days. But this is a very common occurrence and it’s not I don’t think it’s some sort of like mind control from an ET. I think it’s simply that when something is so far outside of your Paradigm that you find ways to rationalize and and again and again and again we have to be reminded.

I’m sort of the more mysterious and unknown and magical parts of life

Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:43] hey, that’s all good. I love all that and that’s right out of the positive vibe of the movie and Russell Targ thing, but it just ain’t that simple.

Lance Mungia: [01:16:53] Okay.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:54] Now the guy who’s been on this show Who I Really respect guy named Ray Hernandez who’s done the first comprehensive survey of contact experiences.

And again Rudy Shields from Harvard. Collaborated on the work it’s real research but raised personal story and it’s a story you’ll hear repeated over and over by people have had contact experience is direct mind control by 18. So Ray is walking down the stairs while witnessing his wife walking into an orb of light that later.

Does this miraculous healing on their dog, which is a long story. I won’t get in here but Ray. Remembers walking down the stairs and then having not a voice but an understanding in his head. Oh, this is a bunch of baloney go back upstairs and go to sleep. And he turns around and he goes back upstairs and he goes to sleep.

Now that defies all logic right there is this tremendous commotion downstairs. There’s this huge strobe of light you’re worried about, you know, all sorts of different things. You walk down the stairs and then oh, no, there’s you just hear that over and over again. Which again this is the tension between the.

Expanded Consciousness is great and we’re all going to be as one and the there is some technology to Consciousness that other people and or beings and or. Advanced human intelligence have mastered in a way that we haven’t and even that is kind of hinted at in your movie which again kill screen who is really far from a villain.

So I don’t want to keep spinning them. Is that as he says, hey one of the things that bug me is we didn’t just try and find that the best. Freaking people at doing this and rather than 600 rustles out there saying No, this is a gift to humanity and being psychic means that we’re all connected and cryptic rains like yadda yadda yadda.

I want to find the guy who’s the best on the earth it doing this so that I can operationalize it protect and weaponize so.

Lance Mungia: [01:19:15] Neither one is mutually exclusive. Neither. Neither point of view is is mutually exclusive. I mean are there things that are out there that we don’t understand. I mean, I don’t claim to know everything, you know, and and are there experiencers of extraterrestrial stuff?

That have had really valid stories about stuff just like what you’re talking about. Absolutely. I don’t discount anything because I don’t know

Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:39] during your movie, right? I mean Joe, Joe says he experienced that in in great one says they big shorts

Lance Mungia: [01:19:45] sure sure sure. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:46] the movie has to draw a point and it can’t talk about everything but that stuff does send things in a whole other direction because they’re viewing Mars a million years ago and saying there’s a war on Mars.

And there’s these giant beings that are ETS and they’re building all these structures and then you have people in your movie who say if Ingo said it it’s true because ego never made anything up and Ingo said that and so don’t know. So what do you do with that?

Lance Mungia: [01:20:13] Well, then first of all, you know remote viewing is always looking at.

Potentials it’s an imaginal skill, you know and a lot of times like for instance in Ingo’s book penetration, you know, he talks about seeing stuff on The Far Side of the Moon noticing a present note the presence noticing him, you know, and and and then and then looking there again and seeing nothing there, you know, so it’s it’s you know, like I said reality is a lot more complicated than we give it credit for and and it’s.

But the bottom-line question to all of this becomes very simply I think as Einstein said do we live in a universe where we’re victims where there is basically no hope for us or do we live in a universe? That’s basically rooting for us. I’m paraphrasing but you know the do we do we live in a potentially expansive universe that we have some control over and.

You know, like I think that’s really one of the fundamental questions of humanities like, you know, like what is our place in this universe like, you know, like and I think that if we’re figuring it out now and there are other cultures out there than they may have already figured it out. And there may be cultures with different agendas.

We don’t know, you know, they so, you know, who knows

Alex Tsakiris: [01:21:32] Here’s another fundamental question that we could kind of dig into as we move towards wrapping this thing up. If there is this extended consciousness realm and if there are beings  that have more power than we do, should we seek to marshal their forces, because that is what’s at play here? Should I do the magic thing?  That’s part of the shamanistic thing that you mentioned in Siberia, but it’s also part of the ET contact thing. It’s kind of, are their space brothers out there, or are there, kind of the evil alien reptilians out there and do we want to somehow contact them and get them to help us in this world or should we not even play that game and transcend? I think it’s undeniable when we look at the fact that people are practicing ritualistic practices in order to marshal forces in this extended consciousness realm that just can’t be disputed.

It also can’t be disputed that the MKUltra program was not unwilling to try and marshal those same forces and it’s also clear that in some cases they’ve done that and that intelligence agencies around the world, including Britain and Aleister Crowley and Parsons on our side have looked into that for the longest time as well.

So what about that? What about using those forces for good or for evil?

Lance Mungia: [01:23:14] Well, it’ll sound really philosophical but I think that whatever you look for you’ll probably find. I think that the only issue with that is that in a sense, if you’re looking to do harm, you’re really harming yourself. It’s like when you really start to understand where all of this kind of leads you philosophically, I am inextricably linked to you, you know, everybody else is inextricably linked to me. So when I start trying to use my magical powers to harm someone, in effect what I’m doing is I’m harming myself and usually that will just bounce right back at you, right? I mean, it didn’t work out too well for Hitler, it didn’t work out too well for everybody else that seems to have tried that.

Now, now can you use psychic ability to create some sort of a negative effect in someone or lead them the wrong way or whatever? I think that a coherent mind is probably the most powerful thing on this planet, and if you have a coherent mind nothing can touch you. It’s what you believe, because all of this basically now comes down to belief systems and what do you believe is going to work, and if you choose to believe in really dark stuff, then, okay, well, that’s the world that you’re living in, but I don’t have to share it with you. Are all ETs like this benevolent thing that are trying to help us? I don’t know, but it would seem to me that just like human beings have different agendas, probably somebody on some other planet would have maybe competing agendas as well.

Again, just like we can’t think of government as this one monolithic force, we can’t think of this phenomenon that includes psychic ability and ETs and all of these other things as just one thing. It’s maybe aspects of the same thing, aspects of consciousness in some way or form, but I think at the end of the day, this is all going to come down to how powerful do we realize that we are ourselves? And that’s really what this is about.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:28] I don’t disagree with you and I think that’s actually very deeply spiritual. I do think it’s hard for people to process that inside of the country that we live in. We both live in the United States of America, we both deal with the contradictions that we are, in terms of we do put ourselves out there as being this beacon of liberty and truth and justice. And yet we look at our history, we particularly look at our history of some of the intelligence agencies and we know that’s not our history and we know we’ve done the most horrible things. In our hemisphere we’ve just tried to overthrow every government we could with with coups, we’ve assassinated some of our own people, we’ve done Manchurian candidate stuff, we’ve brought cocaine in and mass doses and we’ve at least turned a blind eye to the crack.

I mean you could go on and on and on. We’re dealing with that. We’re dealing with our complicity in being who we are. So again, bravo, I mean, it’s a fantastic film and it generates, for anyone who’s paying attention, the film brings those questions to the fore, because you pepper it with all of these little tidbits Lance, like I was mentioning about the guy who gets on the elevator and says, “ Yeah, I know from my most trusted sources that all of this work is still going on,” and you go, “What?” That’s something that’s debated over and over again, on the internet and all of these channels and stuff like that.

So it’s a great film and the dialogue could go on and has to go on but at least this is a kick starter for it.

Lance Mungia: [01:27:17] Yeah, and I think that that’s just it. It’s like, if you can accept the reality of the work that’s been done, then it opens you up to at least consider what’s possible, like what’s possible personally and what’s possible collectively, and also what’s possible in terms of what your government is doing. Or like I said, most likely it’s not really the government anymore, it’s most likely… He said that and he said he’d be shocked if people weren’t still doing it. They’re not doing it in government, they’re not doing it with any oversight. Anybody that has been publicly working with the government, that’s not still very much in the middle of it, is no longer involved. I don’t believe that Joe McMoneagle or any of these other guys are still actively…

Alex Tsakiris: [01:28:04] Is that even a meaningful distinction, as you just talked about yesterday? I mean, these guys are masters at all of that stuff. So they set up some phony baloney CIA cutout organization that does it and then passes the information back. I mean, that’s not an important distinction but the obvious point that I think comes through is, why would you stop doing this? Why would you ever stop doing this? You would never stop doing this. It would be irresponsible to stop doing this because you can’t trust that everyone else is stopping doing it. The Chinese…

Lance Mungia: [01:28:38] This goes back to an earlier comment, when we were talking about the way that the thing is looked at, the way this sort of psychic ability is looked at today, compared to the way it was looked at in the 80s. In the 80s they didn’t really have their act totally together, in terms of what they wanted to use this for yet. Now we’re talking decades later and it’s a much more marginalized subject and it’s kept to the sort of fringes, because I believe that’s convenient for people who are actually using it, to sort of say , “Yeah, we’re not using this and we fooled around with it and it was like there was really nothing to it.” And in fact, you’d probably find that most modern governments are probably in some way, shape or form, using things like remote viewing and other kinds of psychic techniques, and probably trying all kinds of crazy things, like you said, just to see what sticks to the wall and what works, because we know that there’s something there and we don’t understand it and when we don’t understand something, we want to understand it. So that’s what it becomes about and especially if it’s useful.

So, we don’t know how far down the rabbit hole this goes, and we can talk about that all day long, but for me the much more important takeaway is what does it mean to you? What does it mean to me? You know, like what does it mean to human potential? Because that’s really the only reason to talk about it. It’s like, this stuff’s been hidden since the days of the guy on top of the Mayan Temple, you know sacrificing victims.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:30:10] The guy on top of the Mayan pyramid who’s sacrificing human beings and pulling their heart out, is playing a different game than you and I want to play. He’s not playing the, be your greatest self, transcend all of this. And I think a lot of people struggle with, why would I not play the game of getting what I want now in this life? Why I wouldn’t play that? Why I would say the, what you said, the beautiful kind of spiritual non-dual, you know to harm myself is to harm everyone? Why would I stab my left hand to get back at my right hand, kind of thing? We get that on one level, but on the other hand, we do look back at that Mayan Temple an we go, “No, we get that this shit’s been going on forever.”

Lance Mungia: [01:31:06] Yeah, but that we also get that people have been doing stupid things forever. You know, fear is a very, very effective tool, it’s a very, very effective tactic of control. And you were talking about superstition, and when someone’s…

Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:28] Hold on, why don’t we talk about it in terms of superstition? So the Chinese roll into Tibet and they pull the Tibetan Monks out of their monasteries and they force them to have sex in the street with women, and they do all of this other humiliating Abu Ghraib kind of stuff, because that’s what they were saying. They were saying, “We’re fighting superstition,” and we’re all looking at it and going, “No, that’s not Superstition. They are accessing and manipulating consciousness in the highest most profound way.” So be careful with what we call superstition. I don’t think meditation and consciousness manipulation is superstition.

Lance Mungia: [01:32:09] That’s a good point and what I mean is, that you can… And I didn’t finish my previous point. There are real effects that you can find through consciousness and those effects are not explainable. So what that leads to is a whole lot of ritual and a whole lot of other BS that gets involved, in a way that probably has absolutely nothing to do with the effect, but that’s what superstition is. I mean, superstition is, “Okay, I saw an effect that I don’t understand, so now I’m going to get a lucky rabbit’s foot and I’m going to kill a cat and I’m going to do all these other crazy things to try to make it happen again.” And if you believe strongly enough that you want that to happen, maybe you’ll make it happen again, but it’s not because you went and got a lucky rabbit’s foot or did any of these other weird things, it’s just because you build that into your belief system. And what we’re really talking about is the fact that human imagination is a very powerful thing and it acts as an enabler, and that’s really what we’re talking about.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:33:10] I get you, I get you, but that’s maybe not all we’re talking about. Like I’m saying, and that’s the Intriguing thing about ET, because I could talk about spirits all day long and people are just going to go, “Oh yeah, superstition, blah, blah, blah.” But it’s now, we know it’s not because we know when you have a near-death experience you’re encountering spirits, we know mediums are encountering spirits and we can test mediums scientifically in the lab and that’s real. And we know we do experiments with DMT, like Rick Strassman did and they’re encountering spirits and they’re encountering ET.

But let’s take Spirits out of it because it throws everyone the wrong way. Let’s say ET and I’ll go back to my story. ET is manipulating consciousness, we have just too much evidence of that to look otherwise and we also know that the government, like in Wilbert Smith’s memo, they understood that they’re playing in that realm, all communication with ET is telepathic. We don’t know how to do that and they know how to do that. So I don’t think we can immediately say all of the superstitious stuff is superstitious stuff. What if it’s both? What if it’s our human nature to add this layer of crazy superstition stuff? But there’s also this hungry ghost element to it, this extended consciousness manipulation element to it, that we don’t understand yet.

Lance Mungia: [01:34:22] Well take for example a remote viewer looking at a target many times, or for instance a whole bunch of mass consciousness looking at something at the same time.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:33] The Global Consciousness Project.

Lance Mungia: [01:34:34] Or yeah, The Global Consciousness Project, HeartMath, all of that stuff. Well, when there’s a lot of attention placed or a lot of belief placed on something it gives it power. So I literally could walk into an ancient Egyptian temple and if I’m with the right psychic, maybe pick up on some ancient deity that once inhabited that temple. Am I really picking up on that or am I picking up on the belief system of the consciousness that once highly believed that? That’s that’s the thing.

I recently had a remote viewer call me and say, “If you have any property on the East Coast, you need to get out because there’s going to be a huge tsunami wave and it’s coming to the East Coast and it’s going to be some time in September of 2018.” I got really upset and I said, “This is bullshit,” because how many times have remote viewers made these kinds of predictions, other psychics, other prophets, other things made these do-or-die predictions? They never happen the way that you think it’s going to happen because no matter how much people believe…

And by the way, she said, “Oh, but no, there were 12 remote viewers and they are all really well-known and they all came up with the same thing. It’s going to happen this time,” and I said, “Well, first of all, you don’t know if that is going to happen or if somebody had a bad dream that it was going to happen and then they contaminated your sample and they put that into the remote viewing and now everybody’s seeing the same thing.” And even if you were seeing it, even if you take something like tarot cards and you look at tarot cards and you’re asking like, “Gee, is my girlfriend going to cheat on me?” and you put all of these tarot cards out and then the psychic says, “Yes, absolutely.” Then you go home and you break up with your girlfriend or you caused her to cheat or for that matter even just the act of you looking at those cards, now you, as the observer, have a vote in that, as to which timeline you’re going to land on.

So there are all of these different kinds of aspects to consciousness and it’s intangible. It doesn’t really apply. Like when you look an ET, are you really seeing an ET or are you seeing something within a holographic matrix that’s pretending to be an ET or are you just talking about energy?

Alex Tsakiris: [01:36:50] We have evidence of that, we have evidence of, I hate the word trickster, but it’s the common term that everyone uses. There’s a deceptive aspect to that spiritual realm that we don’t at all understand either.

Lance Mungia: [01:37:02] Right, but it’s like we can have an encounter with an extraterrestrial, there’s tons and tons and tons of stuff in the record of actual material things that have been found, actual material, landing sites, photographs, you know, scars, there’s all of this stuff that’s real, but again, we can’t say definitively what it is because we don’t know. Is it really extraterrestrial? We don’t know because we don’t know, but it’s fun to talk about and it’s interesting and I would probably say that if you’re actually going to believe in this consensus reality we’re in, that it’s a huge universe and we would be pretty dense to think that there’s no other life in it. But I will say that the even that is inextricably linked to our observation of it.

I’ve seen a UFO summoner who can sit there and do a meditation and then create, like lights in the sky and stuff like that. Are they creating an actual ET encounter or are they doing something else? We don’t know.  

Alex Tsakiris: [01:38:11] More and more weirdness. So folks we’ve gotten way off the trail, but maybe we haven’t too much. If you haven’t seen Third Eye Spies, watch it. If you saw it a while ago when it first came out, watch it again after this interview and maybe after getting to know Lance a little bit more and the deeper spiritual journey that he’s on, that you can tell from this interview, and see if you don’t see those threads coming out in the movie more and more.

Lance, you’ve been tremendously generous in sharing your time with us. Tell us what else is going on. We did talk a little bit about some projects that are just fascinating that you’re working on, what can you tell us about what’s coming up?

Lance Mungia: [01:38:57] Well, we’re definitely going to be shopping a TV series soon. That will be one of the next things I’m working on. And as I mentioned, I’m producing and editing a documentary with James Fox that he’s been working on for about five years on the UFO phenomenon, which really is basically the silver bullet of the entire history of the phenomenon starting in 1947 to the current day. And that will be coming out sometime in the spring and it’s actually getting a theatrical release. It’s going to be one of the first UFO documentaries ever to get a theatrical release, so that’ll be fun.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:39:39] You’ve got a YouTube channel. I was going to play that excellent trailer you did because again, it’s going to send people or reveal to people a whole different side of you that is interested in this kind of deep spirituality. Are you doing anything with that, and what are your interests along those lines?

Lance Mungia: [01:39:57] Absolutely. I have just started to build up my YouTube channel again after several years and and then I had to go off to produce this documentary with James so I had to kind of stop, but I definitely plan on building that and I definitely plan on making that a really interesting space to talk about human consciousness and to talk a lot about these different kinds of phenomenon that we see from remote viewing, to the UFO subject, to sort of spirituality, to cutting-edge science. I have so many friends who are basically, you know, just really on the cutting edge of science that I would love to talk more about and get on there.

So yeah, I definitely plan on building that. The channel is called Waking Universe TV, or you can just search by name Lance Mungia, and you’ll find the YouTube channel, and I do plan on becoming much more regular with the videos that I post soon. I’m kind of getting settled settled in here. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:41:04] Well, you just look like a working movie maker, which is awesome. That’s who you’re supposed to be.

Well, it’s been just terrific having you on and again, congratulations on this work and I certainly will be keeping an eye out for anything else that come out of Lance Mungia’s little lab there.

Lance Mungia: [01:41:22] Oh, one other thing I want to mention. There’s a possibility that my first film, Six String Samurai may be coming back to theaters, believe it or not. It’s over 20 years old and has absolutely nothing to do with any of this topic matter that we’re talking about, but it’s really kind of a fun, kind of cult movie, visually interesting Kung Fu film and there’s been some discussion about them re-releasing it. So that will be fun.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:41:47] And that’s on Amazon, you said right now? Is it on Amazon?

Lance Mungia: [01:41:48] Yeah, it’s on Amazon Prime 2 and so is Third Eye Spies,  you can get that on Amazon Prime. You can also find it just on regular old Amazon if you don’t have Amazon Prime or Vimeo, iTunes. Really anywhere digitally worldwide, Third Eye Spies is now available and you can get DVDs or Blu-Rays if you want them directly from my website, which is thirdeyespies.com. You can go there and you can join us on Facebook also, Third Eye Spies, and I really appreciate you giving me the time for the interview, it’s been a fascinating conversation.